Dialogue between people with and without experience of poverty

Text: Monica Müller

The sun is shining, the birds are chirping, the evening invites you to linger outside. And yet, all kinds of people descend the stairs to the Matthäus community centre in Basel. They all go to the ATD dialogue, an event designed to bring people with and without experiences of poverty into conversation with each other.

Eight round tables are available for the participants of the dialogue event. The organisers ask everyone to join newcomers. After all, the event is about entering into a dialogue with others. Each table seats representatives of the NGO ‘ATD Vierte Welt Schweiz’, people who have experienced poverty, and those who have not. It is not yet clear who will fulfil which role.

The organisers welcome everyone and briefly introduce themselves. ATD Vierte Welt Schweiz is organising the evening together with Winterhilfe and Caritas Basel. The abbreviation ATD stands for ‘All Together for Dignity’. The organisation has existed since 1957 and is represented in around 100 countries, including Switzerland, where it launched in 1967. Its aim is to better understand poverty in Switzerland and to overcome it together with a wide range of stakeholders. The project receives scientific support from the Bern University of Applied Sciences and the University of Applied Sciences Northwestern Switzerland.  

The research project ‘Armut  - Identität - Gesellschaft’ (Poverty – Identity – Society), which ran from 2019 to 2023, has already been completed. Its participants included people with personal experience of poverty, those with a relevant professional background and academics. Using the ‘knowledge crossing’ method, they worked together to determine what it means to live in poverty and depend on social benefits in Switzerland today and how the link between care and coercion has developed.

They then proceeded to work in groups. Pictures of various subjects were on the tables: a parked Vespa, a full ashtray, an aeroplane in the sky. Everyone is invited to choose a picture that makes them think of poverty. Someone picks the image of an iron garden gate. She says: ‘Many doors are closed for people living in poverty.’ Another person chooses the photo of a rodeo: ‘You can be thrown out of the saddle quickly, you're powerless, the impact is hard.’

Initial discussions are held about the statements on the pictures. A man with experiences of poverty is pleasantly surprised by the empathetic votes from the panel. A woman with experiences of poverty emphasises that it is important to distinguish between those who have fallen from the top to the bottom. And those who always lived on the ‘red line’. She is physically and mentally exhausted from this life. Next, everyone was asked to write down a prejudice about people living in poverty on a piece of paper. Prejudices would be the topic after the break.

Next, the groups looked at findings from the ‘Poverty - Identity - Society’ research project. They are recorded on laminated slips of paper. Everyone is allowed to choose two insights to present later. The cards say things like: ‘Loneliness experienced by people in poverty’, ‘Perception of people in poverty as less than full persons’, ‘Lack of time and many bureaucratic requirements in institutions’, ‘Difficult conditions for children of people in poverty’.

The task of the group was to organise and group these insights. At first, the group was very quiet. Then, the first players laid down their cards, adding them to the others. When organising the cards, they got in each other’s way – and conversations began. After talking about the pictures, the ice was broken and the people at the table had lively discussions. Lines and arrows were drawn on the paper tablecloth with felt-tip pens.

The table’s poverty expert commented: ‘I am endlessly tired. It's an unequal battle.’ He says: ‘Everyone always brings up personal responsibility, but self-determination is not a given.’ Afterwards, the groups were invited to share some insights with the larger group. Here, too, the votes are moving: ‘There is enormous pressure on those affected’, ‘The rift in society is deep’, ‘How do you get people to show solidarity?’ 

During the break that followed, everyone enjoyed some drinks and snacks while talking to each other. The programme then continued in new groups. The organisers clustered the noted prejudices and formed new teams. Now, they were asked to discuss various prejudices. For example, one half of a table had to represent the statement ‘Poverty has always existed’. The other half had to argue that a different future is conceivable.

The role play is not without its challenges: some find the topic too serious to express an opinion that is not their own. Others get involved in the game with relish and say sentences like: ‘We, the church, need the poor – they are our business.’ ‘If more people have a better standard of living, it will put a strain on the environment.’ ‘Better education? For Heaven's sake, what are we going to do with even more doctorates in this country?’

In the large group, some of them then comment on the role plays. Many found the discussions frustrating because of the confrontational tone. A realisation: ‘It's difficult to have a meaningful conversation when people simply make unfounded statements’, one man observed. Someone summarised the discussion as follows: ‘Some had to justify themselves, while others were not challenged at all.’ 

The discussion quickly moved away from the role plays, and many expressed their personal opinions. The room fell silent again when a person affected by poverty shared her great wish with those present: ‘I wish that our children will not be discriminated against. We have to support and encourage the children – that’s the most important thing.’

After the final discussion, the hosts gave an outlook on how the project would continue. Many more such dialogues are planned, as are follow-up interviews with the scientists and further workshops. By the time the participants of the dialogue event emerged from the catacombs, night had fallen.